125142-carbine-whatever-happen-to-the-devs-are-listening
Content ---- How would that help, exactly? What data do you have that shows more players would come to the game? | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- a lot of the suggestion on the forums (showed and disccussed with respect, not flame wars like the op) are introduced in every patch, even one of the posters said some days ago that he was glad his suggestion of repair plot last longer was included into the fixes of drop 5 | |} ---- ---- Who said "we" wanted pets, I for one don't they will only get in the way. Content updates... they actually reduced that and so far I've not heard anyone being happy about that. Same Faction BGS is only a stop gap, the whole PvP is actually a good example of the devs not listening. Since the launch of this game players have reported you are unable to run a PvP guild and nothing has been changed for that. One server transfer... another good example of the devs listening and reacting. You do know it was only promoted inside the already establish wildstar community, I wonder how many they have attracted outside it because it was not advertised anywhere. | |} ---- ---- The last thing I (and most of the community) want is B2P. The only people who actually want B2P are the freeloaders who want to skip out on a sub. moderator edit: language Edited April 27, 2015 by Chillia | |} ---- | |} ---- ---- If you where here from launch, you would understand why they stopped the monthly content patches. Considering you don't understand the reason behind it, I'll explain. They released a content patch or 2 monthly and both times the content was too buggy and felt rushed. The community wasn't happy at the time and neither where the devs, so instead they decided to spend more time on Q&A and less on pushing out buggy content. http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/state-of-the-game/ The more you know ;) | |} ---- I'm playing till September (Got credd stacked) So that's not the issue. | |} ---- So the game is "B2P" pretty much for you till September any way? You get B2P just by playing the game and buying C.R.E.D.D. 1. I know a lot that have, the majority did (as far as I am aware), one person does not equal the community 2. Dethmold already pointed this out, but just wanted to enforce it again, if you were playing at launch, you would notice how bad drop 1 and 2 were. They were that bad that my guild left the game (which resulted in me being lazy and not bothering to find a new guild so I followed them back to WoW). I for one was over the moon when this was announced, so yes, I am happy, as was a lot of people at that time. 3. They are trying to "fix" PVP (honestly, it seems fine to me, but I am a casual PVP'er that doesnt care about ranks), so yea they are listening on that end. Just because they are not responding, does not mean they are not listening (pretty much the exact same thing I say to the missus) 4. I hope that was sarcasm? Can you hear the out roar if we had to stay on the PVP server? Sure it may have more people if no free transfers, but realistically, the community, being as small as it is, does not need to be separated by servers (never mind region) at the time of it being implemented, so yes they listened and put in a feature that would glide people to the same server. I get the impression you were having a bad day and thought to blow some steam on the forums? | |} ---- I want P2P so your statement is not valid. | |} ---- ---- ---- I wish the forum would somehow mark it when a thread has been seen by a dev... :ph34r: But seriously, a lot of stuff in the recent drops seems to be very much in line with what "people" have asked for? Vet shiphands, DS20, the new rune system, pets, do-over for customizing your character looks, making gear more accessible. | |} ---- I also agree with these gentlemen, i prefer P2P. I like my community. | |} ---- 1. Same can be said towards others in this thread, but about the pets I'm curious where you found a lot of them I did saw a discussing. Few found it fun and others were against it because it was distracting in combat. 2. That is one side but there is also the other side that says that they aren't delivering that is promise anymore, so the community is split on this as well. 3. They aren't listening to the PvP community, Carbine clearly has their own path in mind with this. Just read through the first few months when PvP was still big you will see a lot of good suggestion and teardowns what is good and bad about WS pvp. Almost nothing has made it into the game, beside some of the PvP gear changes but many pvpers wanted everyone on one and the same level. Leaderboards is another thing and like said the concern that you can not run a PvP only guild in this game. Those are some very basic things... 4. when we had the mega servers, the PvP server Luminai was actually larger in players then Jabbit so according to your logic it should have been the other way around. Anyway it took them far too long to react to everyone leaving ship... and there where some attempts by the community on Luminai to organize events and such to keep it lively. Many tried to contact Carbine asking where we could promote it and if they maybe wanted to promote it on their twitter or something or give us some kind of support. I've asked around and we are all still waiting for a reply. From that point I don't believe at all anymore that the devs are listening, the least they could do was write 1 of us a reply but they didn't. I've seen better communities then this in F2P games. It's the people and their respect and interest that makes the community, so i would say the game makes the community not the payment model. | |} ---- ^ Very true Like I've said many times, Carbine killed their own server. Why it's still there now I don't know... There isn't anyone left on Lumi I don't think (Except for the few who don't mind it being a ghost town) | |} ---- If you've seen better communities in F2P games, why are you not enjoying their company? I personally have played over 20+ F2P/B2P MMO's and all their communities have been horrible. P2P for me has ALWAYS consistently provided a better community. This game has been no exception. The hostility your facing is from the people fighting back against the small minority of vocal gamers who want the game for free. The vast majority don't want that. | |} ---- ---- I do, I'm currently focused on 2 MMO like most players these days and I've 2 others on the side as well where i dip in now and again. that is why P2P is also old fashioned. Players at most have 2 subscriptions for a game mostly have 1. So if you give them a choice to play FF, WoD, EVE or WS then most won't pick WS sadly. Beside that you have a lot of players that are very satisfied with for example GW2, they would like to have another game on the side but that will never be a p2p game. Our Community has over 100 members in GW2 and i tried to get them interested but almost everyone said was that it was very interesting but that they will have trouble justifying the subscription for the amount they will most likely play the game every week. For your experience with f2p/b2p MMO's I'm very sorry for you so far I've had no problems at all in BnS, GW2, Star trek online and Rift. P2P community strikes me as more mature and they will use bigger words so to say but they are just as toxic ;) As for the vocalization, most that want it f2p or b2p are older players that have actually left since they felt the subscription was not justified. Since they left they can not post here on the forums anymore. So on the forum 100% who is for P2P WS are still playing it while those who want a f2p or b2p might be 20% of the whole group just to give you a number ( i can name 4 friends that would start playing WS again if they go f2p, and i'm sure i can tempt more) | |} ---- ---- Again, you are further proving my point. Pick up and Drop players who return for content binges are NOT good for the community and the long term. Well i pick 1 sub and its wildstar and many others too. Your making a lot of assumptions. Thats again because your part of the F2P/B2P mentality of the current MMO gamer generation. Your multiple MMO's, pick up and drop content binges are not good for games and communities, but you don't realise this. Because who cares right? Your having fun and your effect on others is transient. I would say this community is extremely friend and helpful and only toxic to people who try and push against the style this community has developed. Again, your assuming everything. This community i bet would prefer to keep this game P2P, if you don't like that or can't afford that i'm really sorry for you. But let the small community who have this enjoy their game the way we want it. | |} ---- This is the problem. Players are trying to play an MMORPG as a basic video game, which is leading developers to build them that way, which in turns minimizes the things we love about the genre. A well-designed MMOPRG is consumed more as a hobby in and unto itself. If you can play 4 or 5 of them at a time, then you're either spending too much time playing games and ignoring life, or they are so shallow they may as well be pong. Players who want to fit that kind of schedule around WildStar? I'd say that's their problem, and the game nor the business model should accommodate them. A subscription fee is a steal for a well-design MMORPG. | |} ---- Lol, no. He wasn't making the business or marketing decisions. He was just delivering them. | |} ---- Fixed that for you. | |} ---- ---- While he was with NCsoft, he seemed pretty stern about the game not going F2P/B2P. Unlike a lot of developers i've seen, he had balls to stand his ground, or in the very least he played that image of himself very well. | |} ---- ---- Well the (OW)PvP in WS is basically zero, I need to get my pvp fix from somewhere right? Anyway I don't think the perfect MMO exist there will always be part of the game you dislike and if another game does provide that then why not play that? I like the raid and Instances in Wildstar and I play Wildstar for that, and I play PvP in another MMO and I do questing and leveling there as well because it's far more interesting then wildstar but their dungeons/raids aren't that good. There simply is no 1 size fits all MMO. Talking about hobbies, if we look at fishing there are so many forms of fishing and how you can fish. Does it make you less of a fisher if you do fly fishing in the lakes and also do seafishing once in a while? And there are many who practice multiple fight sports. | |} ---- Players who play for 2 weeks never to be seen again is good for the community, and so far WS still have a community number problem so something is not working. Well we need to make a lot of assumptions because Carbine don't give us any numbers when it comes to players on the server so you need to make an assumption what you see for yourself. Same like you need to make assumptions as well, there is no way you can support your argument that many players will chose WIldstar over WoW or FF... And the funny thing is those things that can be looked up like content released you actually fail with, so please look at yourself first before stating that I do everything wrong in your eyes. You also dropped quite a lot of content since your first post and only argued what others are doing wrong in your eyes. As for one only subscribe to 2 or 1 games that was said by people from the industry Well if you want to live in the past then so be it. If carbine decides to continue this path then I'm really curious where it will end. As for the drop mentality you are talking about that i've... really? you're making assumption of a person you don't even know and telling me to not make assumptions... I've been playing GW2 since launch and I still play that, I've tried other games for a month yes but they did not appeal to me so i stopped playing them. Since i got bored with the dailies and quest in WS I looked around what else was there, BnS became F2P in Japan so i started playing and I'm liking that. Just to show I had to what in queues on non prime time sometimes to login on the server so yeah F2P really helped that game population wise. I never said this community was bad or toxic, so I'm not sure what you are defending? Are you maybe making the assumption that i find this community toxic? And no that is no assumption, like said this is mostly based on the gaming community I'm in and friends that i made in WS that left the game because they didn't think the subscription was justified for the content. The rest is based that you NEED an active account to post on this forum so this exclude quite a lot of players who are pro f2p or b2p since most already left. When you look on fora where they do have access to then you see a lot more that want Wildstar to lose the subscription. So please stop making assumption yourself. | |} ---- ---- ---- This is the same model design I created months ago and posted and people dismissed it. This is the model that I really hope they execute upon. No prior commitment and no box purchase, and free trial all bundled into the same thing, is going to be the best option to introduce a player into the game. I figured that out with WoW, considering I played the hell out of the free trial. and when I saw that the battlechest was 10$ and gave me 30days of game time. cheaper than 1 month of game time. I went for it. Essentially I had to buy a box, but money wise same idea. The only change I could say, is max level 35 for the trial, and 100% unlimited time, and all you need is a CREDD to go beyond level 35 content. Allows players to hang around in game make friends, goof off, ect until someone feels like they're worth dropping a CREDD on. And Allow the PVP BGs to be accessed with an upscale of level 50, but that's really pushing it, and I'd rather Carbine just take the base model and go with that and tweak the system later. Basically market wise, you can get people to burn CREDD whom may or may not use it(sounds shady i know), and it allows gold and credd to be consumed and traded around, letting lesser privileged players to get the chance to play and continue to consume CREDD. Not sure how a 15 day trial with only level 20 access will be much of a way to get players in on game basics alone. Either 15 days and unlimited access to 50 until time is up so players can grab a CREDD/Sub and keep playing or level 35 acccess with no time restriction. Either move is worth while. I'm absolutely serious about level 35 trial limitation change too. Get people to the hoverboards at level 25, get people to Farside/Moon Area, and let people goof off and have fun with hoverboards, and housing and expericing the fun that was the low gravity mooon. That's going to be the best part of your advertisment to end on for most players, is let them get a taste of the extremely fun things that they could be doing. | |} ---- ---- Well that's the rub. For somebody with an established 50 making enough plat to afford CREDD isn't that hard. It's that "established 50" part that's the problem. Some people *waves hand* didn't hit 50 until the 2nd month. Others took quite a bit longer. Then there's the distraction of exploring the world as a new player. A few people know how to make money in games. Others consider it a huge chore and won't bother. Framing Wildstar as virtually B2P/F2P is a trap. Some will achieve the income needed to live on CREDD but not enough. The danger is that those people will turbo grind to 50 and burn out or they'll take their time and get frustrated when they fall far short of the plat needed to afford their next CREDD. IMO it's best to maintain that it's an alternative method to acquire subscription time. | |} ---- I started in June. Hit 50 in December. | |} ---- Well, as many have mentioned, there are similarities. Technically speaking, it is B2P at that point, but only in the most direct way possible. B2P relies on an idea that people are buying cash exclusive items, and that money goes to the company, and it covers development for people who aren't buying cash exclusive items. It is assumed that the players who aren't paying for development are doing something to "make themselves worth it", filling the queues being the general idea here. Theoretically, CREDD performs the same function, but it works as a lever from the other side. Carbine sells a sellable subscription, that gets traded for plat. Then the roundabout thing is plat being used to buy stuff. Money is essentially being directly traded, meaning that the guy paying the real cash is sending the sub time direct, and the guy buying the CREDD has to be participating. For this to work most effectively, the best way to grind currency should be what you need this theoretical army of CREDD-using players to do. If what you want these players to do is fill your PVP queues, you make random queueing PVP the best return on cash for time in the game. If you can do that, it's a far more efficient system than B2P. The people with the money are directly financing the precise amount of players and they can only purchase things attainable in the game by normal means (otherwise, they wouldn't be able to buy things from the AH). Whether the CREDD users are being directed correctly has always been Carbine's problem. For the longest time, gathering circles were how you made the fastest cash, and that was otherwise useless in the game. | |} ---- It's not only that but the CREDD market is also quite small and the Sellers have the upper hand because some will need to buy it for next subscription. | |} ---- ---- I should clarify that I don't actually think farming plat for CREDD is the be-all option for B2P. I completely agree with you regarding the disparity between different people's plat income. | |} ---- xbox live fee came to my mind, most of the games you mentioned need xbox live or ps plus on top of your internet connection to have replay value, most of them became obsolete after a few months (fifa 2010 my worst purchase) because they become ghostowns. ill make my case with my recent purchases, assassin creed unity took me 1 month and a half, after that it will sit on the shelve because have very low replayability, the same happened with farcry 4 and other innnumerable cases, just on those 2 i spend US 120 on 3 months, in that train of ideas it seems good to spend USD 15 on this game ensuring the develop of replayability instead of USD 40 monthly in those others. i enjoyed both but my wallet always prefer this kind of system instead of buying games every month. the mmos are different beasts they need to be updated frecuently or they die, like the hype of the last AC they need to be in a constant updating to feel the world alive, just look at other genres and you realize that (if you arent dark souls) pretty much you dont play it until a big update or a dlc comes out | |} ---- Bad examples are exceedingly bad. Dark Souls had god-awful Windows support for years. They only JUST RECENTLY release a patch that finally fixed the fact that the game rendered incorrectly on PC, played at a capped framerate, didn't support DirectX correctly, leaked video memory, crashed constantly, and required player-created patches to run at all. Dark Souls launched in 2012 on PC, and only got this update within the last 6 months - almost two years later. Don't talk to me about FromSoftware having a polished and supported Dark Souls release when it hit PCs and stank like rancid shit until its players fixed it. As for Bethesda and Skyrim, I think the recent paid-for mods fiasco is enough to squash that argument in any capacity. | |} ---- False equivalency. WildStar is an ever expending and developing MMORPG, with an expected in house support stand and design. Not a persistant single purchase play and done one off purchase RPG. | |} ---- ---- If he weren't comparing apples to oranges, I probably could. Single-release single-player games =/= MMOs. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- And I think a great deal of them focus more on cashing out of their playerbase rather than making quality content, so... Even if I did I still wouldn't agree. I've worked that side of the industry as well, it's no fun if you're super into the game. | |} ---- Have you worked for a subscription MMO? | |} ---- As a volunteer a long time ago. My most relevant work to this situation came from ArenaNet, and I did not enjoy having to spend time making cash shop items. If that's enough for you to disregard my argument though, then we can end this exchange here. | |} ---- NCsoft has quite a few MMO's without a subscription, maybe their models are something to go by to imagine how WS might be as B2P game. | |} ---- I know but you talked about subscription based MMO and you said that you worked on that side of the industry as well. So was curious if it was any better or not. | |} ---- I meant the side that has to consider content-exclusive monetization, such as cash shop items. For what it's worth, I felt that taking my team's time away from polishing our release to hash out ideas for things made exclusively for the Black Lion Trading Post was not the right thing to do. | |} ---- ---- Do you have any idea how expensive that is? | |} ---- ---- ---- Honestly, I think all of us are spending way too much time and energy stressing over what's to come. "What will be, will be" and there is likely nothing that we, as a community, can do to change it - well, outside of convincing every person we know to come and play Wildstar, which, while a great thought, isn't really practical. The folks in charge have already seen the wall they're up against, and it's a pretty good bet the money-men have already slapped the facts on the table. We all know that things (read: population issues) are getting better, but there is likely still a long way to go to reach a more comfortable paying population. Whatever they decide (or have already decided and are just being mum on) is going to be about two very basic principals: making more money and getting more people to play. We can't fault them for wanting either, even if we don't all agree on how to achieve those ends. | |} ---- Your correct of course. It's just tough not knowing. It's a safe bet that most everyone who's commenting on these type of threads truly care about the game and that's a good thing. I think feedback is good though but I see what your saying. We just need to be a bit more patient and hope for the best possible outcome :) | |} ---- This game is fun but so empty . localization in other language attracts other players who pay the game. | |} ---- It's worth debating the point, but it's really not worth speculating on Wildstar's ultimate fate. If you give in to despair just because people on the forums tell you to despair, you'll cease enjoying the game for what it is. | |} ---- Maybe but if it cost a million to do so then it should bring in a million quickly as well and I doubt that is the case. | |} ---- Supply and Demand still work in MMO's. Sellers still need to price their CREDD for what the Buyers will tolerate. If nobody buys your CREDD you get no plat. Each buyer has a threshold where they'll just walk away from the market. That threshold is a function of their income vs. their expenses. Smart buyers maintain a reserve (mine's back up to 5) so they can weather a temporary bounce. If the price of CREDD gets too high I have the means to pay for a sub. You state that as a buyer, have you tried doing this as a supplier? The 12% tax really hurts the already paper thin margins on most resources and you're better off just vendoring them. Yes there are things that sell well but the supplier needs to have an awareness of the server economy that I've found that most MMO players don't grasp or can't be bothered to. If you're in Malgrave you're close enough to 50 that you'd be better off just grinding it out. | |} ---- Aion, dc universe, neverwinter, rapplez, meetin2 ... have much gained from the translation of the game. Why shouldn't wildstar that is a better game than the ones I listed earlier? | |} ---- Hey folks we do already have a thread dedicated to discussing this, so I'm going to ask that this thread get back on topic to 'the devs are listening' - and the language discussion can go back to the main thread here. Thanks! - Team WildStar | |} ---- You can but newer players don't had the time to build up those reserves and often they also need more gold to get better gear and they earn often less. And you have means to pay a sub but players from south america and east Europe might have a more difficult time to justify the sub price and as far as i know they dont have adjusted prices for them. To make it simpler in wildstar sellers have the better position compared to the buyers because some buyers must buy credd for their subscription, i don't think anyway can say this isn't true. | |} ---- ---- ---- I'm pretty sure when they're selling t3 and t4 materials for 40-70s each, there is no "paper thin margin" to deal with. | |} ---- Are you talking plants? (bladeleaf, goldleaf, logicleaf, etc.) The high value plants go for a bunch because they're painful to find in the open world. Even if you plant the seeds you still need to do open world gathering. (Entity) Wood is vendor bait. Omni-plasm is marginal. Only platinum and galactium have the margins to generate plat quickly enough to afford CREDD. The downside with mining is that its nodes are the only ones that have a minimum character level requirement so you need to be level 25 for plat or 45 for galactium. At 45 you're better off getting those last 5 levels and running Vet Shiphands. It's not impossible but it requires specific knowledge (optimal gathering paths, valuable resources, which addons to use, etc.) that most newbies won't be aware of. | |} ---- I suddenly feel the need to hire you to manage the crap in my inventory . . . | |} ---- there is already a 10 day free trial to lvl 20 | |} ---- Don' look at me maaan... I've got 150+ costume items crowding 3 toons' bags. :lol: | |} ---- I can't even tell you how much plat I've sank into Manaweave to do work orders on my tailor. Yes, some plants are rare and thus fetch higher amounts, but xenocite and manaweave are where I spend most of my money these days, and I've seen platinum and titanium fetch pretty good numbers, as well as whimfiber. Plus there's literally gadzooks amounts of wood available and you can just vendor those for a decent turnaround. | |} ---- Which does absolutely nothing to breathe life into the game. I've given several of my friends keys and trials. It's useless when you can't queue anything or see very few in the game world. | |} ---- That's entirely subjective, though. | |} ---- It's an MMO. I'm currently playing a single player RPG until I get to 50. If it was so subjective, why do these threads continue? | |} ---- Because this is the outlet for people dissatisfied with the game. This is where they dump that frustration. There's an interesting double-standard at play where positive feedback is disregarded, and negative feedback is championed. It's maddening. | |} ---- Why aren't you playing with your friends? This is the problem... it's the players. Players expecting to play an MMO like a single player game... "queuing" should never be the first option, it's a last resort. Go help your friends. | |} ---- Then all the more reason to band together and not down play a different solution with all of the F2P, B2P threads that continue. I don't have friends playing. 12 friends given keys and trials, some would like to return some won't ever. And I disagree wholeheartedly, queue's were included in the game to be operational, not just UI clutter. | |} ---- I love the in-game community. I hate the forum community. It's night and day. | |} ---- In my experience Wildstar has the worst overall "community" of any MMO I've played in my 14 years playing, regardless of business model. It's like the shrink in player base has distilled the garbage into the rankest sewage. It's only saving graces to me are it's style, addictive combat, movement and the roleplay. If changing the business model would act like a virtual reset button and at the very least give the community a chance to restart, I'd drop $100 on a cash shop in a heartbeat. | |} ---- In my experience it has one of the best. chats are not full of *cupcake* spam, racist garbage and hate speech. people are mostly nice to each other and those who aren't quickly find themselves without anyone to play with, one of the benefits of a small community IMO :) New players who ask questions in chat get help rather than the trolling they would get in certain other games. There are a lot of friendly and helpful people in the game and some great guilds. It's a shame you don't seem to have met any of them. perhaps you play dominion :D (don't bring out your pitchforks I'm joking!) | |} ---- Have you played Guild Wars 2? | |} ---- ---- this is all i really have trouble with. one of the top reasons i got into wildstar and why im still hear is because i truly believe(whether it is because of some clever ploy on their part or not) they the devs give a shit about making a great game and great game experience for their players(before making money, though i do not take light the importance of making money) | |} ---- So you're saying we're number 1? YES! | |} ---- You must have had some really super amazing communities then, because WS playerbase (not the people on the forums) are some of the nicest, most generous, friendly and all-around helpful people I've ever had the pleasure of gaming with. Questions are asked, and answers are given, and maybe one or two joke answers might pop up, but you KNOW they're a joke answer (and are generally followed by a real answer by the same person). Yes, there are jerks, but thankfully they generally have to play nice to get groups, or they eventually leave for lack of anyone wanting to interact with them. | |} ---- You do know that every that plays the game has a forum account as well. ;) | |} ---- but not everyone that posts on the forum plays the game. there are many frequent trolls here. | |} ---- ---- Then you're definitely running with the wrong crowd in this game, because as stated above by many people, this community is one of the best. People are actively helping out others, and almost all questions get instantly answered, both on the forums and ingame. There's definitely some bad apples in the community, but they're on most ignore lists already or get reported by people to eliminate them from the game. This is also sadly true... | |} ---- You can only post here when you have an active account.So yes everyone that post here has an active account. | |} ---- Having an active account(or here on the 10day trial) isn't the same as actually playing the game. | |} ---- You *just said* you gave friends trial keys. So which is it? If you have friends or if you make friends and play the game properly, as intended, with other human beings that you know, you'll never see a queue again. As I said they are a last resort that lazy gamers have somehow turned into "the way to play." I'm here to tell you it isn't. | |} ---- ---- ----